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Who Killed The Electric Car?
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brad62
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 отправлено 12/6/2007 8:32:23 PM
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If you don't have the divx player installed yet? You should install it. This is a great documentary.
http://joox.net/cat/2/id/1915109
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Sheriff
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отправлено 12/7/2007 9:34:36 AM
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brad, I OWN this movie. 
Al Gore blows.
This is not an official position of RusUSA.com, but a private personal opinion of some of its members. RusUSA.com and its affiliates are not responsible for the opinions of its members
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Serega13
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отправлено 12/7/2007 2:55:43 PM
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Al Gore is waaaaaay better than Dick Chaney though
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Sheriff
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отправлено 12/7/2007 5:47:48 PM
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Dick blows too.
and whatever your sick twisted mind can make out of it  
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brad62
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отправлено 12/7/2007 7:33:37 PM
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They both suck. That's my opinion.
I only watched the movie because that kind of technology interests me.
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Serega13
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отправлено 12/10/2007 2:02:58 PM
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Let's see:
Al Gore - one world government agenda, pushes free trade and global warming issues, claims he's not interested in politics anymore, won nobel peace prize and an oscar, wrote numerous books on above subjects, was a vice president and WON elections in 2000, participated in creation of internet (although this is debatable).
Dick Chaney - neocon agenda, former defense secretary, as a vice president oversaw privatization of government and creation of the biggest national debt in the history of the world while his own company made off with billions, lines his own pockets by starting wars for the benefit of his own haliburton company, goes to any lengths to try to convince the public to start even more wars in the future, shoots his friends "by accident", is anti-gay even though his own daughter is a lesbian.
In John Stewart's words: You don't know dick!
[Message edited by Serega13 on 12/10/2007 2:06:52 PM]
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Pavel19
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отправлено 12/27/2007 2:17:24 PM
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I agree, very interesting documentary. Unfortunately a lot of it is hogwash.
First of all, how do we know that electric cars are more enviromentally friendly? The electricity they use can come from a number of sources which may or may not be better for the enviroment. For example, the electricty they use may come from burning coal. Is burning coal any better for the enviroment than burning gasoline?
The second part I don't agree with is blaming fuel companies and the government because the vehicle didn't catch on. This is a market economy which means the consumer controls what is made. If there was enough interest in the car, and it was profitable for GM to produce them, they would continue with the manufacturing of the car. Unfortunatly, that wasn't the case.
Until a reasonable alternative fuel source becomes cheap and reliable, we should conserve as much gasoline as possible. The government should step up and enforce regulations on consumers and companies.
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Serega13
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отправлено 12/27/2007 3:17:00 PM
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I don't buy this "market economy" crap, it all sounds good only if you don't know how Washington works, when there are 1000s of lobbyists per each and every senator, "free market" can only mean one thing - big business is free to fuсk the consumers any way they see fit, and they will get away with it. Keep believing in "free market", they would have you believe that it's normal that this country doesn't produce anything anymore, oil companies make more money than the government collects taxes, weapon manufacturers have enough influence to start wars and healthcare industry is fuсking everyone over so much that you can get an operation in this country and pay $200000 for it (if you have insurance that is) or get it for free in communist Cuba, and you will live longer there too.
So I say this - there's no such thing as democracy, not in this world, no such thing as free market and sure as hell no such thing as government coming in and making things all better, governments exist to tax people, not to help them. 
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Pavel19
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отправлено 12/27/2007 5:24:49 PM
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Serega - If there was enough national interest in the electric car, it would be being manufactured right now. 300 people or whatever the number was, is not enough to keep a car on the assembly line. In the end it is a free market. Because if one company doesn't provide for the needs of the consumer, the next company will. And the company that doesn't provide for the needs of the consumer is the one that goes out of business.
The problem is with the consumer. How many people are willing to drive a car that is slower and uglier, just to help the enviroment? The answer is not many. Most people want the big and fast car. Those are the cars that burn a ton of fuel and are horrible for the enviroment. If you want change, it has to start with the people. Market research is done everyday to determine what the people want, and electric cars are apparently not the rave.
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Sheriff
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отправлено 12/27/2007 7:30:12 PM
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Pavel19 - it is a free market. Because if one company doesn't provide for the needs of the consumer, the next company will.
Welcome to the forum.
This is fairly naive and purely theoretical concept, dear.
How much does it cost to research, develop, test, manufacture and market a car? How many companies are capable? Do you know that there are 300 car manufacturers in China, how many of these are selling in US? There's no such thing as "free market" at that level.
Market research is done everyday
Market research at that level is done to a) under-sit large competitors, and b) to cover big executive's ass.
We have both in case of GM and Ford, that is why they are loosing market to Japanese manufacturers (and even Europeans), that is why - if it was "free market" - these 2 companies WOULD BE OUT OF BUSINESS BY NOW.
[Message edited by Sheriff on 12/27/2007 7:31:19 PM]
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Sheriff
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отправлено 12/27/2007 7:34:45 PM
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Pavel19 - How many people are willing to drive a car that is slower and uglier
Please, dear, stop reading newspapers and watching TV, and go LEARN SOMETHING. Then come back.
I'll start with Toyota Hybrid, which has a tiny engine. Go drive it. It is FAST and slick. That is why they sold 250,000 this year (2007).
I'll continue with Tesla Roadster (0-60mph in under 4 seconds), which is an electric sports car that will kick Porsche's arse, not to say badly built Mustangs and Corvettes.
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Pavel19
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отправлено 12/27/2007 9:46:54 PM
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"This is fairly naive and purely theoretical concept, dear."
I'm glad i've endeared myself to you so quickly, sir. Explain exactly how that is "theoretical". I know that if I don't like a certain product, I won't buy it. I don't know what country you live in, but companies in America make their fortunes by appealing to the consumer.
"Do you know that there are 300 car manufacturers in China, how many of these are selling in US? There's no such thing as "free market" at that level."
Do you think that is because somebody is prohibiting them to do so? No! They are free to sell anywhere they want, such as Toyota, Kia, Subarus, Honda, etc. The bigger question is whether the American consumer is going to want to buy their vehicle.
"We have both in case of GM and Ford, that is why they are loosing market to Japanese manufacturers (and even Europeans), that is why - if it was "free market" - these 2 companies WOULD BE OUT OF BUSINESS BY NOW."
Ford and GM are not appealing to the consumer. They've made crappy car after crappy car. Do you think America likes it that Japanese and Europeans are stealing their business? If it wasn't a free market, Japanese and Euros would not be allowed to sell in America. Thanks for helping me prove my point. Ford and GM are hanging on by a thread, and only because some Americans like to buy American cars.
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brad62
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отправлено 12/28/2007 6:37:10 AM
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Pavel19 said; but companies in America make their fortunes by appealing to the consumer.
Actually Pavel. Companies make their products appealing through advertisement.
You don't get what you want, you get what they provide.
There are niche manufactures that will provide; at a premium.
Ford, and G.M. are alive because of Government subsidies. I.E.. the American tax payer
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Pavel19
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отправлено 12/28/2007 8:56:06 AM
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"Actually Pavel. Companies make their products appealing through advertisement.
You don't get what you want, you get what they provide.
There are niche manufactures that will provide; at a premium."
I think you're still living back in Soviet Russia.
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Sheriff
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отправлено 12/28/2007 10:11:22 AM
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Pavel19 : I think you're still living back in Soviet Russia.
I think we all are living back in "Soviet Russia", only it is now called The United States of America. With slight difference that people are (yet) not being killed for their opinion - they just get ignored.
But I digress.
Pavel19 : Ford and GM are hanging on by a thread, and only because some Americans like to buy American cars....Ford and GM are not appealing to the consumer.
Most americans don't know better, and Ford/GM advertise in every large magazine, TV and radio show. Where did you get the "not appealing to consumer", I have no idea...
I beielve it is now MORE AMERICAN to buy Honda or Toyota. They are made in USA now. They employ american people, they buy american parts. They make much better cars then GM and Ford can ever make.
I've got a banner:
Be a Proud American. Support US car manufacturers. Drive Honda or Toyota
[Message edited by Sheriff on 12/28/2007 10:21:44 AM]
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Sheriff
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отправлено 12/28/2007 10:20:02 AM
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There's another reason why GM/Ford are not out of business. It is because their stock is being pumped by Wall Street as "all-american stock". There's even a saying "As goes General Motors so goes America".
As brad pointed out, GM/Ford has HUGE government contracts. Every police car (even in other countries, like Israel), every bus, lots of specialty cars like ambulances, trucks, etc. are all made by them. So you and I are already supporting GM/Ford too much, with our taxes.
I'd like to own a company that is claiming "free market" yet a) has guaranteed government contracts, b) has a stock that is supported by Wall Street, and c) is claiming that it is "all-american" for customers to buy their product
BTW. Japanese cars are here because they make better cars, and because they buy into our deficit (US Government bonds and dollar) - i.e. they, along with China, basically hold our economy from collapsing under dept.
[Message edited by Sheriff on 12/28/2007 10:23:11 AM]
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Serega13
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отправлено 12/28/2007 11:05:01 AM
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It's all about political influence, for example, Toyota has a bigger lobby in congress than GM or Ford. These lobbyists are the same people that used to push Ford's and GM's agenda, but now they switched to the client who pays more and on time.
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Sheriff
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отправлено 12/28/2007 11:13:10 AM
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Also, about the new trend, "Fuel Cell Cars". Mostly, it is a propaganda to delay real economy cars - electric. Technology is about 20 years away from being mainstream, and if it ever will be, oil companies will still control the distribution channels. An all-electric economy for the U.S. is a reality, technology EXISTS NOW. But no one wants it, no big interest group want YOU to have control over POWER (for instance, buying your own solar panels and getting OFF THE GRID).
Can Sunshine provide power for all US, Scientific American
It only costs $400 Billion dollars to build all-electric grid. That is 1/3 of U.S. Defense Budget for 1 YEAR. Basically, I rest my case.
China and Germany already started building all-electric grids. Japan, Korea and France get most of their electricity from nuclear plants. Big industrial countries want nothing to do with oil, and bank on electricity.
Yet in US ... mostly propaganda, and ridiculously high gasoline prices. This is "free market" for ya 
This is a good read also:
http://www.hybridcars.com/
[Message edited by Sheriff on 12/28/2007 11:31:03 AM]
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Leny
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отправлено 12/28/2007 11:35:43 AM
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I have to agree with Sheriff and Sergey…”free market” is just a concept, and more importantly impossibility. Gov’t always regulates the market. The difference is in the extent of such regulation. In US and anywhere in the west automotive market is one of the most regulated niches. The underline “official” premise is the safety of the consumer, since the automobiles are inherently harmful and dangerous. But of course no one would give a f--ck if the cars would not be so damn profitable...;-) You sell a car first and make money later with financing, parts etc. (Ford’s financing division is only continuously profitable part of the conglomerate). However, even “evil” lobbyist and gov’t has to deal with cost of R&Ds and profitability.
Simplifying the situation by saying that we can have electric car if the gov’t would allow it is kindergarten bullshit. No one wants an electric car until it drives and looks like a “normal” car. In order to create such a “normal” electric car, there must be investment fueled by substantial interest in such product. So GM and Ford who make the most money on the big trucks, having all American support they get from consumers, gov’t and their own political and social advantageous, are also on electric bandwagon. The problem is no one wants it.
Germans in BMW and Benz have been saying this for years that they have been pushed into electric engine/ auto market by American lobbyist. They are much rather build great diesel engine. Yes, lobbyists prefer electric v. diesel.
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Sheriff
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отправлено 12/28/2007 1:31:05 PM
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Leny, yet BMW doesn't make hybrids or electric cars, however they introduced a Fuel Cell. Maybe they are confused, huh?
Diesel is the other part of oil. Electricity can be had cheap, and it is also renewable. I don't have a problem with U.S. "pushing" for electric, but I don't see it. Bush is twisting and turning like an eel on a hot plate to NOT introduce electric.
BTW, Audi is brining it's TDI diesel engines into US in 2008. A4 TDI and their SUV will have high-quality diesels. Makes me wonder whether I was too quick in buying my A4 
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