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Hello Everyone! Russia, Bush, tax cuts
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SuperDave
24 posts
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 posted 3/26/2004 3:55:08 AM
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My name is Dave. I live in the USA, Cincinnati, Ohio. Is anyone near Cincinnati! I am 35 years old and I am studying the Russian language as a hobby. I would love to meet someone from Russia to talk about culture. I would like to visit Russia one day. I can appreciate the Russian people and thier emerging capitalist system. I can give advice to Russians so they won't fall into Socialism or Communism again. I admire the flat tax system. I like to talk politics. If there is someone out there from Russia in Cincinnati who needs to learn English, I would be happy to teach you. Maybe you could help me learn Russian better. Send me a reply with phone number or email address. 
[Message edited by SuperDave on 3/26/2004 3:57:09 AM]
..edited by sheriff, changed title to reflect topic of the thread...
[Message edited by Sheriff on 11/1/2004 6:17:22 PM]
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Serega13
Moderator
1310 posts
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posted 3/26/2004 12:48:21 PM
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Very nice of you, Dave! But when you say: "So they won't fall into socialism again" ...  Canada and most of the Europe live in socialism, and quite honestly, last thing people in Russia need is more advice, 10 years of chaos, poverty and corruption caused by "advices" from the West were quite enough. I can only hope Russia will stick to it's own way of building it's future and I seriously doubt Western-style capitalism will ever happen there - after all, when large corporations control government, mass media and even the military - can that really be called democracy? I think not...
P.S. That's just my opinion, fell free to agree or disagree.
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Акакий
2414 posts
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posted 3/26/2004 1:02:55 PM
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" 10 years of chaos, poverty and corruption caused by "advices" from the West "
Serega, I don't think this was caused by the Western advices. The people did it to themselves (some people did it really good), probably using advice/money from the west.
Dave, what's wrong with socialism? it's not as bad as you think. Many people (even in the USA) would prefer socialism over capitalism, if they knew good things about it.
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Serega13
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1310 posts
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posted 3/26/2004 1:20:08 PM
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People did it to themselves? No I don't think so, some people did use the situation to their advantage and plundered the country sending billions of dollars out of the country while elderly folks were starving, that's true, but regular common people did not do anything to themselves - it's that drunk Yeltsin together with his "privatization" buddies and oligarhs. Western corporations also took advantage - as long as money were leaving the country in huge quantities - they were on the receiving end. Now when all of this crap stopped happening -all of the sudden they became concerned with the "way Russia is headed". No wonder, US and Europe do not want Russia to become strong again. Maybe it's just me, but it pisses me off how country got plundered, and now Western countries look down and say: "You are going in the right direction, soon you will be just like us!!!"
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Sheriff
Admin
4057 posts
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posted 3/26/2004 1:46:42 PM
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Aha, political discussion!
What is this wonderful "capitalism" that everyvbody is talking about? Let's define "capitalism" and "socialism".  And then we'll find that there's not many differences anymore between the two, just like there are no differences between Democrats and Republicans (besides the fact, that it is a good cover for those who are really in power).
Here's a definition from capitalism.org:
Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned. Under capitalism the state is separated from economics (production and trade), just like the state is separated from religion. Capitalism is the system of of laissez faire. It is the system of political freedom.
Any virtue of "capitalism" you can find in US can arguably be applied to a "socialist" system. It is an argument based on misconceptions and lacks of defined terms. Free market, which is entirely NOT FREE in US, and a political freedom - which is a total BS in US, is two of these "differences".
I'd say that Russia now a lot more "capitalist" than US.
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asifna
606 posts
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posted 3/26/2004 1:53:24 PM
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Guys,
he just wanted "to talk about culture"  )) and "meet someone".....Don't try to make impression on him)))
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Sheriff
Admin
4057 posts
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posted 3/26/2004 1:53:56 PM
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Hi, Dave, welcome to our forum!
Hope you will enjoy participating in conversations beneficial to all parties!
Hmm, "culture", I don't know, there's not too many people with "culture" on this forum  OK, it's a joke.
People, play nice, please!
[Message edited by Sheriff on 3/26/2004 1:56:32 PM]
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asifna
606 posts
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posted 3/26/2004 2:01:31 PM
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k, Sheriff)
It is a good chance to recornize what american mean by "russian culture"....I guess it is "russian women" or "vodka" or smth else..
David, what do u know about russian culture and what do u want to know?
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Serega13
Moderator
1310 posts
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posted 3/26/2004 2:08:49 PM
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American understanding of Russian culture is usually: vodka, cold, Siberia, bears walking the streets, communism and Stalin. Doctor Zhivago for very few, that's about it. Sad, sad, sad. One guy at work told me he wants to visit Leningrad and also St.Peterburg...had to explain that it's the same city. Why is it that people only learn from TV and movies, what's wrong with this picture!!! 
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asifna
606 posts
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posted 3/26/2004 2:20:36 PM
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Way, u have met an educated person!!! He knew Leningrad and St. Peterburg as well!!
I am sick of question "Were are u from" ...and after my answer "I am from Belarus" hearing "a--aa-a-a" ....Ok, if u not familiar with geography why u asked me were I am from
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Акакий
2414 posts
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posted 3/26/2004 4:28:41 PM
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Ugu, politikal diskassion
"People did it to themselves? No I don't think so, some people did use the"
Serega,
Russian(Soviet) people did it, not somebody else from the west. Some people took advantage over other people. Many russian got very rich and many others got very poor. This kinds of thngs happen every day in every country. You do not blame the west for all the problems. The "drunk Yeltsin" is not from the west, he was one of the russian people who elected him - and who are often drunk too:-)
"Golosuem za Eltsina!"
Anyway, it's not that bad, there are many good things in Russia, at least people can have good time there
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yuliya
181 posts
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posted 3/26/2004 6:43:47 PM
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it's true. But i think u argue too much over this thingy. What happened, happened u cant change the past. About culture Asifna right, Dave meant the vodka, women and many other stuff
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SuperDave
24 posts
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posted 3/28/2004 12:16:12 AM
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Well, actually, I WAS just hoping to meet people from Russia and learn the lamguage. I wasn't planning to get into a political debate but now it's on.
Plan and simple. Communism is a political philosophy responsible for the deaths (torture, execution, starvation) of over 100 million people this century. And socialists are communists without guns. If you believe in Marxism/Socialism/Communism/Egalitarianism/Collectivism/Liberalism/Progressivism---What ever you want to call it---- It doesn't work and has never worked in the history of time and won't work in the future either. You condemn everyone to mediocrity or poverty if you support this political philosophy. The USA is the greatest country the world has ever known. We don't need electric fences to keep our citizens in--we need them to keep citizens from other countries out. People vote with their feet. People come to this country because we offer them freedom and opportunity that they never had in their own country. The people of country are free. If I were a Russian citizen, I would reguard Ronald Reagan as my hero. His policies alone led to the freedom of the Russian people.
In 1945, the USA dropped two large bombs on Japan to bring a quick end to WWII. 30-40 years later, almost everything we buy in the USA said "made in Japan". This is because they modeled their government and capitalist system after our own. They are the most capitalist country in the world and not coincidently have the highest income per capita in the world. In 20 years from now, if everything progresses in Russia the same way, I predict that many products sold in the USA will say "Made in Russia". Capitalisim makes it's participants rich. Some many times as rich as others. Socialism makes everyone equal--equally poor. Except for a few elitists.
As far as all of you guessing what I mean by Russian culture. Vodka never crossed my mind. I'd like to ask Russians who are old enough to discuss it what kind of hell they had to live through in the various dictator regimes under Krushchev and Gorbachev. I wanted to know if the KGB kicked in your doors in the middle of the night and shot your family members because they spoke out against the Soviet dictatorial government. I'd like to hear some of the horror stories about how the Soviet government mistreated it's citizens, denied them free speech, free press, free assembly, etc. I've lived in the USA all my life so such things are totally alien to me. I'd like to know the cost of living compared to the US and what life is like today in Russia in general.
People who have actually lived in Russia are the ones I'd like to hear from. For the Communist dictator apologists that think John Ashcroft is some kind of threat to your freedom and have never lived in Russia, you need not respond. You're out of touch. Good luck to the highly intelligent Russian people. You are only in the beginning stages of freedom. There will be bumps in the road but you will prevail and be some of the most prospreous people in the world. I hope Russia and The USA will unite and erradicate evil throughout the world.
Super Dave
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Serega13
Moderator
1310 posts
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posted 3/28/2004 1:04:00 AM
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Thing is, Dave, personally I think Russia has too much freedom right now. Certainly more than US. In fact, during Gorbachev's times average Russian was as free as an average American. But was worse off money-wise, salaries were too different. This has been improving since than but there's still a long way to go.
What I was trying to say is that I think Russia should NOT try to become like US. US has so many problems that I don't understand how it is still remaining a superpower. Largest prison population in the world percentage-wise (talk about freedom...), 10 times as many lawyers as any other country in the world, most obese country, legal age to purchase alcohol 21 being one of the highest anywhere in the world (you can die serving in the army but can't buy beer...), drug abuse through the roof - much much higher than in coutries with legalized drugs, corporations lobbying laws and basically running the country, controlling mass media, influencing lawmaking branch and president, I mean the list goes on and on.
Surely Russia has it's own problems, I just don't think that all of this stuff is a necessary companion of democracy. My point is - every country is different in a way and democracy doesn't come in just one blend (made in USA).
[Message edited by Serega13 on 3/28/2004 1:09:21 AM]
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SuperDave
24 posts
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posted 3/28/2004 3:34:58 AM
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Serega, you are quite correct in that The US has many problems. Obesity is a rich country's problem. We have too much food. There are over a hundred countries that would love to have this problem. We have one of the highest ratio of prisoners to population. In a free country, you will have this. One third of all US prisoners are there because of drug offenses. I would like to see all drugs legalized. I am a libertarian by nature. I believe that humans should be free to make decisions that are self destructive as long as they do not harm others. In short, we libertarians believe that your rights end where mine begin. You have the right to be stupid as long others' rights are not violated in the process. Most problems in this country would be eliminated if the communist party (which refers to itself as the Democrat party) had no power. Democrats in the US are anti-American, pro-communist traitors and a good percentage of them should be in orange jumpsuits.
Where you are wrong is where you state that under Gorbachev's Stalinist expansionist dictatorship, Russians had more freedom. This is fantasy or ignorance. Ask the Lithuanians if they had more freedom of assembly as Gorbachev sent the Black berets in with tanks and crushed them. If you tried to start a newspaper in Russia that was critcal of the government, you would be "disappeared". What freedom did Russians have in electing Gorbachev? None! He was a dictator. In Russia at that time, there were NO free elections, NO free press, NO free speech, No freedom of assembly, NO private property rights. You needed a permit to go anywhere. If you left the country, you would be informed that upon your defection to whatever country you were visiting, members of your immediate family would be imprisoned until you return. From the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 until the Berlin wall collapse of 1989. Russians lived in tyrany, fear and control. But, there was minimal crime, no drugs, and no prostitution. I think they like the free market capitaist system now more than the communist regimes that brutalized them. Are you from Russia? If not then do not delude yourself into beleive that you speak for the Russian people by saying they were happier under Gorbachev. It was practically illegal to be happy in Russia before 1989 and Russians know it. Thank you Ronald Reagan for bringing down what we now can conclusively say WAS "an evil empire".
Super Dave
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asifna
606 posts
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posted 3/28/2004 9:11:01 AM
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--Are you from Russia? If not then do not delude yourself into beleive that you speak for the Russian people by saying they were happier under Gorbachev. It was practically illegal to be happy in Russia before 1989 and Russians know it. Thank you Ronald Reagan for bringing down what we now can conclusively say WAS "an evil empire".--
No, Dave, they were happier (in general) not under Gorbachev, but under Brezhnev and Hryschev as well...
It is much simpler to live if somebody tell you what to do, what not to do, what is black and what is white. 90% of population I believe lost there "religion" and happiness.
Politic situation have nothing related to people happiness. When I was a child and teacher told us "we live in most powerfull country, greatest and such.....and thank you to our party for this" I could cry because of happiness...(sure I was only 7 years old).
Now people lost it, and old generation still miss it...They need something unstead of ideology, like religion (for example). But institution of religion had been destroyed as well...
Thea are unhappier now, and it is a fact.
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asifna
606 posts
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posted 3/28/2004 9:28:20 AM
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--continue--
sometimes people ask for freedoom, and when they got it have no idea what to do with this freedom ))))))))--
life is full of surprises, --
парадокс.
(improve your russian - I did not find translation for this word )
[Message edited by asifna on 3/29/2004 4:41:01 PM]
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asifna
606 posts
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posted 3/28/2004 9:39:37 AM
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Serega, you know Russia never become like US. It is impossible ) And have goods in US "made in Russia" is impossible as well ))
In 100 years Russia may become Someting, something unexpecting and extraordinaring, but god knows what it can be ) Russian history have (an average) 2 big wars and 2 revolutons for century, so we will see...But I feel myself much safer to live in US ))
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yuliya
181 posts
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posted 3/28/2004 11:14:59 AM
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I think that if person doesn't live in Russia,so how they can know how people in Russia live. Dave just reads newspapers and watches TV, so he sees Russia on TV, so he doesn't exactly knows how did people live during USSR and now.
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SuperDave
24 posts
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posted 3/28/2004 12:51:12 PM
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It sounds like you're all in denial about the true atrocities committed under every Russian leader since the Bolshevik revolution. Either that or you all thought you were happy until you learned how happy you could be in the USA. Just think. 15 years ago in Russia, this web site would have been shut down as anti-government. The designers would be imprisoned. Most of the Russian people on this forum now live in the US. They voted with their feet. If you thought Russia was a better country, you would still be there. What of the countless countries taken over by Soviet imperialism? The borders of the USA have remained the same for over 60 years. Do any of you speak fluent German? If the answer is NO, then your welcome! Because had it not been for the deaths of 250,000 US soldiers in WWII, you would ALL speak German and so would I.
Super Dave
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